Limits to barter

[jansman]

In a non SHTF time large scale bartering has occurred.My Wife was a seamstress in a number of Leicester's hosiery factories during the 1980's and early 90's.During the recession then ( remember that?) many factories in the city and county bartered goods and services,as interest rates of 14+% ( remember that?) meant that our exports were struggling,so cash was short.Indeed,several times Mrs J did not get paid.

However,the Inland Revenue soon stamped on it! They found a way to use tax laws against barter.This was the start of the decline of Leicester's hosiery and shoe industry.Less of the industrial history though!

Regarding grenfell's BIL bartering time.If it works for him,that is great. Personally,I have had times when an employer has given me time off and asked me to make up the time.I have always insisted on just not being paid.My time is more valuable than money or material goods.

[Arwen Thebard]

I think there may be differences in barter values between "inside" your own community / unit / group and "outside"

Within your own group barter is likely to be on a time/work/skill basis, outside that unit it would need to have an "instant value" due to trust issues.

[grenfell]

Yes you're probably right there , rather emphasises the benefits of community or at least one of the benefits.
I wouldn't disagree with what's been said about precious metals at all but there's a part of me that regards PM's as not "proper" barter. Not to say it isn't a very good way of carrying out business just more that it's more of a return to former monetary trading. Gold and silver was the medium of most coinage at one time and some sort of collapse or breakdown could see us return to previous methods. 'Course I suppose it could be said that we already trade or barter our time for bits of paper or more frequently electronic signals.
Thanks to those that have contributed , it's been very interesting . Reading this thread alongside diamond lil's thread about the rising debt levels I can't help but wonder if people were to trade their labours directly for goods society would be in a much better position.

[Deeps]

Yes you're probably right there , rather emphasises the benefits of community or at least one of the benefits.
I wouldn't disagree with what's been said about precious metals at all but there's a part of me that regards PM's as not "proper" barter. Not to say it isn't a very good way of carrying out business just more that it's more of a return to former monetary trading. Gold and silver was the medium of most coinage at one time and some sort of collapse or breakdown could see us return to previous methods. 'Course I suppose it could be said that we already trade or barter our time for bits of paper or more frequently electronic signals.
Thanks to those that have contributed , it's been very interesting . Reading this thread alongside diamond lil's thread about the rising debt levels I can't help but wonder if people were to trade their labours directly for goods society would be in a much better position.

Human nature gets in the way, its the same with communism/anarchy, in theory they're not bad systems, put people in the mix with our egos then somehow 'we' want that little bit more than the other people, there's perfectly good justifications for this of course......

[jansman]

There is ( just) a system that uses time barter. It was popular in the late 80's and 90's. It sprang up in many towns,and used a paper chequebook system,trading skills for time,which you then traded back for a needed skill.It is the Local Exchange Trading System. LETS.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_e ... ing_system

It was popular amongst environmental types quite often,who saw our money based system as environmentally damaging.It was also popular in areas of high unemployment in the 90's recession.Trouble was that the DHSS as it was then stamped on it as ' unpaid work' and I believe some folks lost benefits.

Da Man don't like independent thought!

[grenfell]

Interesting link that . Probably the line that stands out most for me is "Many people have difficulty adjusting to this different kind of money system" , and the idea that it's possible to get something for nothing , for example by playing the stock market , means ( or at least the way I see it) that in general people shy away from barter. Add to that our economic system is based on wealth being loaned into exsistence ( effectively created out of nothing) , something that can't be done with goods and it's not hard to see why the idea is less attractive to banks , corporations and governments.
That said a link to that link is a very good read. Owenite economics sounds good.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barter

[jansman]

Thanks for that link. I like the line there about barter." There has to be a double coincidence of wants". That's the essence of it I reckon.

[Deeps]

There is ( just) a system that uses time barter. It was popular in the late 80's and 90's. It sprang up in many towns,and used a paper chequebook system,trading skills for time,which you then traded back for a needed skill.It is the Local Exchange Trading System. LETS.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_e ... ing_system

It was popular amongst environmental types quite often,who saw our money based system as environmentally damaging.It was also popular in areas of high unemployment in the 90's recession.Trouble was that the DHSS as it was then stamped on it as ' unpaid work' and I believe some folks lost benefits.

Da Man don't like independent thought!

I would guess that our litigious society would make things difficult now for the 'you scratch my back...' arrangements, I fall over and break a leg while clearing out your garden for you and I'm suing your ass mentality. Dunno, just a thought.

[Arwen Thebard]

"I would guess that our litigious society would make things difficult now for the 'you scratch my back...' arrangements, I fall over and break a leg while clearing out your garden for you and I'm suing your ass mentality. Dunno, just a thought."

The same is already damping down the idea of renting out spare beds / rooms in homes to free up beds in hospitals. So many lawsuits just waiting to happen.

[Deeps]

"I would guess that our litigious society would make things difficult now for the 'you scratch my back...' arrangements, I fall over and break a leg while clearing out your garden for you and I'm suing your ass mentality. Dunno, just a thought."

The same is already damping down the idea of renting out spare beds / rooms in homes to free up beds in hospitals. So many lawsuits just waiting to happen.

If I'm wide of the mark then tell me to shut my pie hole but if you don't know how to quote posts, then once you open the reply box (I know you've got that one weighed off ) then on the post you want to quote there's a box on the top right corner "QUOTE, click on that and voila. Saves you typing it all out.