Retreats on the cheap?
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maxilaura
Re: Retreats on the cheap?
the marble mine looks fantastic - could really disappear off the map living there
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KalPrep
Re: Retreats on the cheap?
Now that is pretty darn cool. Given that this country appears to be on an onward downward spiral into the toilet bowl, finding somewhere like that (in a less hostile country!!! ) would be the way I am planning.Moony wrote:You mean this sort of thing ? http://www.survivalrealty.com/2012/01/a ... -mine.htmlmaxilaura wrote:Has anyone thought of using caves as a BOL? Thinking along the lines of "since the cavemen lived and thrived in them, why can't we"?
Anyone have any suggestions?
Thats a cave, with over 11 acres for less than £38,000. Oh to have US property prices in this country !
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Alleycat
Re: Retreats on the cheap?
I went on a sightseeing trip on Lanzarote into the caves there, but of course different to our caves nice and dry constant temp of 18 degrees C - they had been the BOL of choice by the locals in the 'olden days' when pirates landed....of course the guide didnt use the words bug out 
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coulesy
Re: Retreats on the cheap?
I understand the situation and cost of land, but if and when you do acquire some land have you thought about containers they are fairly cheap and once dug in they can be connected, just and idea.
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Triple_sod
Re: Retreats on the cheap?
Ah the container idea has been doing the rounds in the ‘survivalist movement’ for years. From what I’ve seen however, very few people have actually gone anywhere with it, and those that have seem to spend more money making the things liveable, than it would have cost to build a conventional house. Obviously though it all depends on what you can put up with and if you just wanted it for a 'bug out location', there's a lot of things you wouldn't bother with.coulesy wrote:I understand the situation and cost of land, but if and when you do acquire some land have you thought about containers they are fairly cheap and once dug in they can be connected, just and idea.
Planning permission laws can be a bugger though, they seem to take a pretty dim view on that sort of thing. ( You’d almost think the powers that be didn’t like the idea of people buying a plot of land building a cheap, sustainable house and being debt free in a couple of years…….) Certainly there’ve been a few well documented disputes, so you’d have to be sure to dot the i’s and cross the t’s when applying.
On the other hand, they seem a lot less finicky if you’re putting up a building for other purposes. So if you own some woods for example its neigh on impossible to build even the most ‘low impact’ home, but can stick up a big shed to keep your chainsaw and other equipment in…..
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the-gnole
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dunley67
Re: Retreats on the cheap?
I don’t know if this is workable or not but I once hired a mobile home and took the family to Wales, we drove on every day but on one occasion we pulled into a hill farm who had diversified into camping.
Now this was really basic, couple of really rough statics, some dodgy tourers and some decaying concrete pitches. I got the feeling that some of these were on long term hire or owned not by the farmer.
So the idea is this, find a handy looking farm in the wilds if that’s what your looking for, small hill farms usually have low incomes, discuss your requirement perhaps a container for storage and a static caravan or perhaps your b o vehicle and old bus or something to live in and see how it goes.
You then build up over time a relationship based at first on cash but hopefully later on trust. Make sure your using this “holiday” destination at times when he needs help on the farm and offer you services for free for a day or two.
Don’t sound to extreme when looking for a suitable farm, along the lines of want somewhere to get away from it all a few times a year not your expecting the end of the world ,you then have your ‘’holiday’’ gear in your container and you just arrive with what you leave home with.
If it really does hit the fan, when you next arrive you can come clean you already know the family and become part of the surviving community with hopefully a skill set he will need or at least respect, and you have learnt something of his requirements in advance of any problems.
All a bit simplistic i know and how many farmers you may need to ask to get what you want I don’t know but take a holiday in your chosen location and start asking around, might never happen but worth a try if your keen enough.also if it does come off, an annual rent will leave you most of your cash for your other needs. Presumably you’re working so you keep toping up your prepping fund.
Now this was really basic, couple of really rough statics, some dodgy tourers and some decaying concrete pitches. I got the feeling that some of these were on long term hire or owned not by the farmer.
So the idea is this, find a handy looking farm in the wilds if that’s what your looking for, small hill farms usually have low incomes, discuss your requirement perhaps a container for storage and a static caravan or perhaps your b o vehicle and old bus or something to live in and see how it goes.
You then build up over time a relationship based at first on cash but hopefully later on trust. Make sure your using this “holiday” destination at times when he needs help on the farm and offer you services for free for a day or two.
Don’t sound to extreme when looking for a suitable farm, along the lines of want somewhere to get away from it all a few times a year not your expecting the end of the world ,you then have your ‘’holiday’’ gear in your container and you just arrive with what you leave home with.
If it really does hit the fan, when you next arrive you can come clean you already know the family and become part of the surviving community with hopefully a skill set he will need or at least respect, and you have learnt something of his requirements in advance of any problems.
All a bit simplistic i know and how many farmers you may need to ask to get what you want I don’t know but take a holiday in your chosen location and start asking around, might never happen but worth a try if your keen enough.also if it does come off, an annual rent will leave you most of your cash for your other needs. Presumably you’re working so you keep toping up your prepping fund.
Re: Retreats on the cheap?
Regarding the issue of planning possibly(?) the law regarding the siting of a 'mobile home' is relevant:
http://www.joalleisure.com/mobile-home-questions.html
QUOTE:
1. Do I need planning to place a mobile home in my garden?
A "caravan" is defined in s.29 of the Caravan Sites & Control of Development Act 1960 as "any structure designed or adapted for human habitation which is capable of being moved from one place to another..". The Mobile Homes Act 1968 states that a "Twin Unit" mobile home must also conform to certain dimensional and structural requirements (see The Mobile Homes Act, 1983)
A caravan may be parked temporarily (in the same manner as a car) within the curtilage of a domestic property with no need for planning permission, unless there are limiting conditions applied when the house was built. This is more common in modern housing estates.
A caravan can also be used in a manner ancillary to the residential property; that is, in addition to the use of the house, but not as somebody's separate dwelling. You may use a caravan as a granny annex for example, but it must not become somebody's "only or main residence". There must remain a relationship between the caravan and the house, so, for example, meals could be eaten in the house. Use the caravan simply in the manner of an extra room/bedroom. Make sure it remains moveable.
Check to make sure your property deeds do not restrict this permitted development right; particularly on more modern estates or where the council has issued an Article 4 Direction, common in Conservation Areas.
2. Do I need planning to place a static caravan on agricultural land?
It depends on what the mobile home will be used for. The extract below is from ‘A Farmer’s Guide to the Planning System’ (produced by the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister) explaining the situations in which specific planning permission may not be required.
"The use of land (but not a building) as a caravan site in certain circumstances. These include:
use for stationing a single touring caravan for no more than two consecutive nights and for no more than twenty-eight days in a year;
use for stationing up to three caravans on a holding of at least 5 acres for no more than twenty-eight nights in a year;
use as a caravan site of land occupied by an exempted organisation (eg. Caravan Club), or use for not more than five caravans at a time of a site certified by an exempted organisation, or use as a caravan site for not more than five nights for a meeting organised by an exempted organisation for its members;
seasonal stationing of caravans as accommodation for agricultural or forestry workers, and;
use as a caravan site for travelling showmen whilst travelling (but not as winter quarters). In addition, a site licence under the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960 (click for full document) is not required in any of these circumstances.
Click for the full "A Farmer's Guide to the Planning System" document
All cases are considered on an individual level so even if your case falls into one of the above sections it is ALWAYS advisable to speak to your local planning authority to clarify your situation.
More information on farm mobile home accommodation and planning
3. Do I need planning permission to live in a static caravan while completing a self-build or renovation?
Generally speaking, you do not need planning approval to live in a mobile home on the site where you are carrying out building work. As long as one of the family members is involved in the construction or management of the project on a full-time basis.
However, as with all planning issues, each case is individual and different councils may have conflicting requirements. For example, with a renovation project because the house is already in existence, the mobile home would be within the dwelling-house curtilage so not require planning approval.
For a completely new build, i.e. no house has been there before, some councils would require planning approval. For this situation it is advisable to include the mobile home in your initial planning application, it will not cost any extra to add and is highly unlikely to affect the planning for your house.
We recommend you discuss your situation with a local planning officer before siting a mobile home on your build site.
More information on self builds and mobile homes.
4. Can I use a mobile home as a dwelling while completing forestry work?
It is extremely unusual to obtain planning approval for a dwelling in a wood. However, there is an allowance for forestry workers to live in caravans in woods during a particular season while carrying out forestry work (see part 5 of the General Permitted Development Order 1995). There is no specific season according to the High Court, who concluded in 1993 that a season is "less than a year".
Planning permission is not required for forestry work (except where there is a tree preservation order) and may not be needed for buildings or uses of land necessary for forestry.
More information on Forestry and Static Caravans
5. Can a mobile home be a stepping stone in getting a house?
This issue is most relevant if the mobile home is essential to a new rural business most usually agricultural or horticultural. Mobile homes are sometimes allowed for key workers to live on the site to assist the launch of the business. Permission must be gained from the local planning authority which will require proof that the business is feasible and that a minimum of one person is required on site 24 hours a day to care for livestock, for example. The minimum time given for the static caravan is usually three years. As long as the business continues to grow, permission for a permanent building will usually be given.
6. Can a static caravan become established with no permission?
According to the "10 Year Rule" (available in Town and Country Planning Act 1990), if you can provide proof to the council that your static caravan has been situated in its current position for more than ten years, it is generally too late for the council to initiate proceedings against it. You would need to show proof such as invoices for associated work, evidence of a postal address such as a utility bill, transportation, and sworn statements by people who have known the site during the ten years. This proof can be used in the application for a certificate that establishes the use as lawful. Once this is given, the site can then be used for a static caravan, including replacements.
END QUOTE
But if you were to buy a small wood/farmland obviously locals might regard you as a 'pikey' if you move a mobile home on site. However if you were you use a caravan for 'storage' and no-one objected then you would have a legitimate reason for being on site. And construct a 'planning free' (so I have read on this site!) 'nuclear bunker' on the QT?
The shipping container idea is a good one. A couple of years back you could get a single use one virtually for nothing but the price of scrap metal has pushed up prices. If you do go down that route I'd buy an insulated container. Dig a hole, site the container and pile the spill back on.
http://www.joalleisure.com/mobile-home-questions.html
QUOTE:
1. Do I need planning to place a mobile home in my garden?
A "caravan" is defined in s.29 of the Caravan Sites & Control of Development Act 1960 as "any structure designed or adapted for human habitation which is capable of being moved from one place to another..". The Mobile Homes Act 1968 states that a "Twin Unit" mobile home must also conform to certain dimensional and structural requirements (see The Mobile Homes Act, 1983)
A caravan may be parked temporarily (in the same manner as a car) within the curtilage of a domestic property with no need for planning permission, unless there are limiting conditions applied when the house was built. This is more common in modern housing estates.
A caravan can also be used in a manner ancillary to the residential property; that is, in addition to the use of the house, but not as somebody's separate dwelling. You may use a caravan as a granny annex for example, but it must not become somebody's "only or main residence". There must remain a relationship between the caravan and the house, so, for example, meals could be eaten in the house. Use the caravan simply in the manner of an extra room/bedroom. Make sure it remains moveable.
Check to make sure your property deeds do not restrict this permitted development right; particularly on more modern estates or where the council has issued an Article 4 Direction, common in Conservation Areas.
2. Do I need planning to place a static caravan on agricultural land?
It depends on what the mobile home will be used for. The extract below is from ‘A Farmer’s Guide to the Planning System’ (produced by the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister) explaining the situations in which specific planning permission may not be required.
"The use of land (but not a building) as a caravan site in certain circumstances. These include:
use for stationing a single touring caravan for no more than two consecutive nights and for no more than twenty-eight days in a year;
use for stationing up to three caravans on a holding of at least 5 acres for no more than twenty-eight nights in a year;
use as a caravan site of land occupied by an exempted organisation (eg. Caravan Club), or use for not more than five caravans at a time of a site certified by an exempted organisation, or use as a caravan site for not more than five nights for a meeting organised by an exempted organisation for its members;
seasonal stationing of caravans as accommodation for agricultural or forestry workers, and;
use as a caravan site for travelling showmen whilst travelling (but not as winter quarters). In addition, a site licence under the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960 (click for full document) is not required in any of these circumstances.
Click for the full "A Farmer's Guide to the Planning System" document
All cases are considered on an individual level so even if your case falls into one of the above sections it is ALWAYS advisable to speak to your local planning authority to clarify your situation.
More information on farm mobile home accommodation and planning
3. Do I need planning permission to live in a static caravan while completing a self-build or renovation?
Generally speaking, you do not need planning approval to live in a mobile home on the site where you are carrying out building work. As long as one of the family members is involved in the construction or management of the project on a full-time basis.
However, as with all planning issues, each case is individual and different councils may have conflicting requirements. For example, with a renovation project because the house is already in existence, the mobile home would be within the dwelling-house curtilage so not require planning approval.
For a completely new build, i.e. no house has been there before, some councils would require planning approval. For this situation it is advisable to include the mobile home in your initial planning application, it will not cost any extra to add and is highly unlikely to affect the planning for your house.
We recommend you discuss your situation with a local planning officer before siting a mobile home on your build site.
More information on self builds and mobile homes.
4. Can I use a mobile home as a dwelling while completing forestry work?
It is extremely unusual to obtain planning approval for a dwelling in a wood. However, there is an allowance for forestry workers to live in caravans in woods during a particular season while carrying out forestry work (see part 5 of the General Permitted Development Order 1995). There is no specific season according to the High Court, who concluded in 1993 that a season is "less than a year".
Planning permission is not required for forestry work (except where there is a tree preservation order) and may not be needed for buildings or uses of land necessary for forestry.
More information on Forestry and Static Caravans
5. Can a mobile home be a stepping stone in getting a house?
This issue is most relevant if the mobile home is essential to a new rural business most usually agricultural or horticultural. Mobile homes are sometimes allowed for key workers to live on the site to assist the launch of the business. Permission must be gained from the local planning authority which will require proof that the business is feasible and that a minimum of one person is required on site 24 hours a day to care for livestock, for example. The minimum time given for the static caravan is usually three years. As long as the business continues to grow, permission for a permanent building will usually be given.
6. Can a static caravan become established with no permission?
According to the "10 Year Rule" (available in Town and Country Planning Act 1990), if you can provide proof to the council that your static caravan has been situated in its current position for more than ten years, it is generally too late for the council to initiate proceedings against it. You would need to show proof such as invoices for associated work, evidence of a postal address such as a utility bill, transportation, and sworn statements by people who have known the site during the ten years. This proof can be used in the application for a certificate that establishes the use as lawful. Once this is given, the site can then be used for a static caravan, including replacements.
END QUOTE
But if you were to buy a small wood/farmland obviously locals might regard you as a 'pikey' if you move a mobile home on site. However if you were you use a caravan for 'storage' and no-one objected then you would have a legitimate reason for being on site. And construct a 'planning free' (so I have read on this site!) 'nuclear bunker' on the QT?
The shipping container idea is a good one. A couple of years back you could get a single use one virtually for nothing but the price of scrap metal has pushed up prices. If you do go down that route I'd buy an insulated container. Dig a hole, site the container and pile the spill back on.
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the-gnole
Re: Retreats on the cheap?
A shipping container or similar will also need some very good reinforcing to stop it collapsing in, depending on the amount of spoil you put back.
It is only 2 or 3mm steel, not really designed for burying and back filling, but very good for stacking
It is only 2 or 3mm steel, not really designed for burying and back filling, but very good for stacking
Re: Retreats on the cheap?
Actually a shipping container is incredibly strong- its the 'box' strength not the 'material' strength that is important. Think of a cardoard box- a single piece of 5mm cardboard could be bent/broken with your bare hands but fold it into a box shape & it could easily support (say) 200kg plus
Look at a container ship, where they can be piled what 5 or even 6 containers high. Given that each may weigh 30 tonnes the one at the bottom could be supporting over 150t.
wikipedia
QUOTE
There are five common standard lengths, 20-ft (6.1 m), 40-ft (12.2 m), 45-ft (13.7 m), 48-ft (14.6 m), and 53-ft (16.2 m). United States domestic standard containers are generally 48 ft (15 m) and 53-ft (rail and truck). Container capacity is often expressed in twenty-foot equivalent units (TEU, or sometimes teu). An equivalent unit is a measure of containerized cargo capacity equal to one standard 20 ft (length) × 8 ft (width) container. As this is an approximate measure, the height of the box is not considered, for instance the 9 ft 6 in (2.9 m) High cube and the 4-ft 3-in (1.3 m) half height 20 ft (6.1 m) containers are also called one TEU.
The maximum gross mass for a 20 ft (6.1 m) dry cargo container is 24,000 kg, and for a 40-ft (including the 2.87 m (9 ft 6 in) high cube container), it is 30,480 kg. Allowing for the tare mass of the container, the maximum payload mass is therefore reduced to approximately 22,000 kg for 20 ft (6.1 m), and 27,000 kg for 40 ft (12 m) containers.[16]
END QUOTE
Look at a container ship, where they can be piled what 5 or even 6 containers high. Given that each may weigh 30 tonnes the one at the bottom could be supporting over 150t.
wikipedia
QUOTE
There are five common standard lengths, 20-ft (6.1 m), 40-ft (12.2 m), 45-ft (13.7 m), 48-ft (14.6 m), and 53-ft (16.2 m). United States domestic standard containers are generally 48 ft (15 m) and 53-ft (rail and truck). Container capacity is often expressed in twenty-foot equivalent units (TEU, or sometimes teu). An equivalent unit is a measure of containerized cargo capacity equal to one standard 20 ft (length) × 8 ft (width) container. As this is an approximate measure, the height of the box is not considered, for instance the 9 ft 6 in (2.9 m) High cube and the 4-ft 3-in (1.3 m) half height 20 ft (6.1 m) containers are also called one TEU.
The maximum gross mass for a 20 ft (6.1 m) dry cargo container is 24,000 kg, and for a 40-ft (including the 2.87 m (9 ft 6 in) high cube container), it is 30,480 kg. Allowing for the tare mass of the container, the maximum payload mass is therefore reduced to approximately 22,000 kg for 20 ft (6.1 m), and 27,000 kg for 40 ft (12 m) containers.[16]
END QUOTE