Anti-Biotics

[Briggs 2.0]

What is the forum's consensus on fish meds, such as fish pen, fish moxy and fish doxy? Is there a canine or equine alternative? I'm doing a bit of research online at the moment but would welcome any input or advice.

I'm fully aware of the pitfalls of online meds, for both humans and fish/dogs.

It's something I've considered but never got as far as purchasing. Clearly this would only ever be a last ditch option but I'd rather have the option.

[Brambles]

Well, as per the OP, if things continue as they are, those antibiotics will be worthless.

[Briggs 2.0]

Well, as per the OP, if things continue as they are, those antibiotics will be worthless.

I'm no microbiologist but my thoughts and online research suggest that if you have not relied upon antibiotics in the past, then these current antibiotics will have a better effect than if you've been reliant upon them.

Perhaps Holoman can clear that up.

[Bosworth]

I'm in the camp that says having something to try and treat infections, post SHTF, is better than having nothing. I've therefore stocked up from foreign pharmacies. Having had experience of rampant skin infections, lung problems, and fungal outbreaks with close family, it's hard enough treating these with proper antibiotics, let alone with herbal or alternative therapies.

My personal prepping also includes scenarios around WMD attacks using Anthrax and/or global pandemic. Having the right antibiotics to treat lung and skin infections in particular is critical to my prepping.

There are clear risks here, but IMHO it is better to carry a potential risk than have a known issue from a fundamental prepping gap. The risks can be mitigated by choosing your pharmacy carefully and testing what you've bought as far as possible (eg. if prescribed a cream, use one from your suppliers first to see if it works).

Again, this is a very personal choice which others may or may not agree with. There is no objectively right answer.

[Holomon]

I'm no microbiologist but my thoughts and online research suggest that if you have not relied upon antibiotics in the past, then these current antibiotics will have a better effect than if you've been reliant upon them.

Perhaps Holoman can clear that up.

Unfortunately it's more to do with the general population than individuals. Antimicrobial resistance is the way a particular virus, bacteria etc can mutate to become resistant to antimicrobial agents - that doesn't have to take place inside you.
The result of this is when your body picks up an infection, it could already have become resistant to the treatment before it even reached you, rendering that treatment less effective (or useless).

It can happen via a couple of different ways, either within the microbe by spontaneous mutation, or by gene transfer which is part of what I'm looking at right now in terms of the intestinal tract.

It'll be a few weeks (possibly months) until I can have a go at summarising my findings here, but that's the general gist of it. Like the early days of Ebola though, I'm not going to panic just yet until I fully research the numbers.

On the subject though, and without meaning to add to the concern, another avenue I'm having to research is veterinary antimicrobial resistance and it's effect on zoonotic transfer. That's exactly how it sounds - people shooting up their pigs with all the antimicrobials under the sun, giving an increased chance of mutated resistance before something like H1N1 even jumps to us poor humans.
On that note veterinary antibiotics/antimicrobials are the same stuff us humans get, it just tends to have less restrictions on how it's made. So a resistance to one will be a resistance to the other, the only difference being if you take the veterinary kind you may well get some unintended extras in there.

[izzy_mack]

On taking vet meds instead of human meds, I am a bit wary. I stopped my husband from using a certain med for pneumonia in cattle as it KILLED humans. If you accidently injected yourself it was touch and go if you'd make it, it was taken out of use after someone died, can't remember the name as it was a few years ago but I would not assume that animal meds are ok.

[junmist]

Perhaps Holoman can clear that up.
Unfortunately it's more to do with the general population than individuals. Antimicrobial resistance is the way a particular virus, bacteria etc can mutate to become resistant to antimicrobial agents - that doesn't have to take place inside you.
The result of this is when your body picks up an infection, it could already have become resistant to the treatment before it even reached you, rendering that treatment less effective (or useless).

It can happen via a couple of different ways, either within the microbe by spontaneous mutation, or by gene transfer which is part of what I'm looking at right now in terms of the intestinal tract.

It'll be a few weeks (possibly months) until I can have a go at summarising my findings here, but that's the general gist of it. Like the early days of Ebola though, I'm not going to panic just yet until I fully research the numbers.

On the subject though, and without meaning to add to the concern, another avenue I'm having to research is veterinary antimicrobial resistance and it's effect on zoonotic transfer. That's exactly how it sounds - people shooting up their pigs with all the antimicrobials under the sun, giving an increased chance of mutated resistance before something like H1N1 even jumps to us poor humans.
On that note veterinary antibiotics/antimicrobials are the same stuff us humans get, it just tends to have less restrictions on how it's made. So a resistance to one will be a resistance to the other, the only difference being if you take the veterinary kind you may well get some unintended extras in there.

Having read this I was just wondering if we stop using antibiotics for say 5 years would the antibiotics we have now start working again

[Vespa]

Perhaps Holoman can clear that up.

Unfortunately it's more to do with the general population than individuals. Antimicrobial resistance is the way a particular virus, bacteria etc can mutate to become resistant to antimicrobial agents - that doesn't have to take place inside you.
The result of this is when your body picks up an infection, it could already have become resistant to the treatment before it even reached you, rendering that treatment less effective (or useless).

It can happen via a couple of different ways, either within the microbe by spontaneous mutation, or by gene transfer which is part of what I'm looking at right now in terms of the intestinal tract.

It'll be a few weeks (possibly months) until I can have a go at summarising my findings here, but that's the general gist of it. Like the early days of Ebola though, I'm not going to panic just yet until I fully research the numbers.

On the subject though, and without meaning to add to the concern, another avenue I'm having to research is veterinary antimicrobial resistance and it's effect on zoonotic transfer. That's exactly how it sounds - people shooting up their pigs with all the antimicrobials under the sun, giving an increased chance of mutated resistance before something like H1N1 even jumps to us poor humans.
On that note veterinary antibiotics/antimicrobials are the same stuff us humans get, it just tends to have less restrictions on how it's made. So a resistance to one will be a resistance to the other, the only difference being if you take the veterinary kind you may well get some unintended extras in there.

Having read this I was just wondering if we stop using antibiotics for say 5 years would the antibiotics we have now start working again [/quote]

It's quite likely that genetic drift and mutation may mean that individuals of a strain lose some of their resistance to antibiotics but as soon as antibiotics started to be used again the resistant individuals would be selected for and then back to square one.

[birds&bees]

Interestingly enough, antibiotics are so very rarely needed. With proper precautions you can be knuckle deep in someone’s abdomen and without a whiff of medicine. How many ladies out there have had a UTI? What happened to them before the 1940s? Nothing, squat, it was nasty they got over it mostly.

Think of all the surgery that was done before we even knew bugs existed.

Clean water and a thorough washout is all the antimicrobial treatment I would imagine a prepper needs. Even with the strongest antibiotics currently available (the stuff your hospital doctor wouldn't be allowed to prescribe let alone your GP) won't do jack to an abscess say.

I'll just jump up with the side point that the term antibiotic generally only applies to agents targeted to bacteria.

Remember just because you have an antibiotic doesn't mean you have any idea how to use it or that it'll work at all. Course lengths and doses vary for a variety of reasons. I noticed a recent preppers blog post citing cipro as a an antibiotic great for preppers because for example it treated prostate infections as well as chest infections.

1) It's going to predispose you to antibiotic related diarrhoea - all diarrhoea can be a death sentence in SHTF.
2) The dosing for prostate infections is along the lines of 500mg (1-2 tablets depending on the preparation) twice a day... for 4 months. Thats over 200 tablets. Who has that much antibiotic to waste?
3) Chest infection? Who the hell even gets those? If you do STOP SMOKING!

My top tips are co-amoxicav, doxycycline (safe for pen allergic) and flucloxacillin in order of preference. These are very effective at treating very nasty skin infections which you are at risk of in SHTF situs.

SHTF I reckon STIs will be our biggest headache

(My prepper top tip: Diclofenac an NSAID (think ibuprofen, naproxen, aspirin) has decent antibacterial activity, enough that you could treat a e-coli UTI with it).

[PreparedKent]

I have quite a stockpile of Amoxicillin (enough for 2 courses between myself and my partner), Erythromycin (at least 6 boxes) and Lymecycline. This resistance problem is a real worry though, especially with the poor infection control in british hospitals. I heard colloidal silver is a good anti-biotic, I wouldn't give Diclofenac the time of day if I'm honest... last thing you want when SHTF is an NSAID (particularly Diclofenac) induced Heart Attack