Knowing how to do first aid could have saved a mans' life

[skippy]

There is some confusion with "good samaritan" acts in the Uk at present with Political and Legal bodies arguing whether the UK should follow European contries by Legally obliging people to go to the aid of others. France and Germany have laws that mean you can be prosecuted for NOT going to someones aid, for example in a car accident.
At the moment the UK under statute law has no such provision however there is an "implied consent" if the victim is incapapable of making an informed choice to recieve aid. The case or common law allows that if someone is incapapable of telling you a coherant "No"!... then you cannot be prosecuted or sued for administering 1st aid if you are trained to do so.

Skippy

[bulldogeagle]

There is some confusion with "good samaritan" acts in the Uk at present with Political and Legal bodies arguing whether the UK should follow European contries by Legally obliging people to go to the aid of others. France and Germany have laws that mean you can be prosecuted for NOT going to someones aid, for example in a car accident.
At the moment the UK under statute law has no such provision however there is an "implied consent" if the victim is incapapable of making an informed choice to recieve aid. The case or common law allows that if someone is incapapable of telling you a coherant "No"!... then you cannot be prosecuted or sued for administering 1st aid if you are trained to do so.

Skippy

yes, i think the legal implications are in the small print, the definition as to what "trained to do so" relates to, in my case my training was a long time ago.

[maxilaura]

Thanks everyone for your responses.

Jan and Skippy, thanks for the info and Gnole for the links.

I still feel pretty terrible about it but am glad I was able to help as I did, even if not enough.

I am definitely going to sign up for a first aid course.

[Big fat bill]

I'm up to 9 defibs now as a member of the public / ex St Johnnie [ ( johnnies are for life not just after an accident) For some reason they wouldn't use this slogan for the rebrand....] With a ratio of 2/9 brought back. People say there are not many defibs in public places but if you ask in shopping centres, railway stations, Film / picture houses and even some churches you will be surprised at who has them. Of the 7 that went on their merry way to their maker 4 were dead before they hit the floor and the other 3 were not shockable even though life was still there and no death rattles had started.

Don't beat yourself up, you did what you were able to do and that was good. I hope we don't follow the french and germans, It's hard enough now with over bearing " I 've done a 2 hour first aid course with you tuber senarios so i'm a doctor now" type do gooders flailing and thrashing all over the place.

[itsybitsy]

I've done and renewed my first aid training, but to be completely honest I'd never help anyone I don't personally know as you are just opening yourself up to litigation, everyone is looking for a payday and with out personal insurance against such a thing its not worth the risk.

Basically, you have protection through "implied consent" which is if they were able, they would consent to you saving their life! There has (to my knowledge) never been a successful attempt at litigation. I guess I am lucky as I am covered by the ambulance service who defend their staff/volunteers to the hilt.

There's no way I could stand back and watch someone suffering without trying to help. I haven't had first training since I was in the Girl Guides,but if I was the only person on the scene who was willing/able to do anything then I would, without question.

[the-gnole]

People say there are not many defibs in public places but if you ask in shopping centres, railway stations, Film / picture houses and even some churches

That's the crux of the problem though, having to ask takes valuable time, I went to a sports centre a few years back and the sign on the notice board said the AED (Automatic External Defibrillator) was in the office, but the sign was almost covered by other notices, and the office wasn't always open. What use is an AED if it is not in the place where most incidents take place.

In Crickhowell (Wales) there is an AED outside the Tourist Informatiopn (TI) office, just pull the handles and you have immediate access to the equipment, it also auto dials the Emergency services and sends them to its location with cardiac arrest trained medics.

I have been trained in AED usage, along with the usual CPR through the Heart start scheme, and hopefully I will never need to use it, I also have done the full FAAW course through St Johns and as I have their certification I am insured by them should I get it wrong and litigation occurs. As already mentioned it is usually rare for someone whose life you have saved to sue you. After all the medical world can repair most of the damage you are likely to have caused, but death is pretty final.

[Big fat bill]

Simple1 really, You ask as soon as you go into the building where the shock box is not when it's needed.

Also, you may find that St Johns insurance only covers you when you are on duty as a St johns First Aider. As a lay person who has done their course you are not covered. It is prudent to arrange your own insurance if you want to protect yourself.

It's not true that people will not sue you after the event. This is very much the case when treating muslim women. you need to ask the husband or man if they are with the female casy. If they refuse you permission then you have no right to give first aid. It is also the case that if a casy refuses treatment and subsequently falls into unconciousness you can then offer first aid but again this is NOT ALLOWED in a muslim woman situation without recourse to the male if accompnying her.

This is first hand knowledge because I refused to offer first aid when a husband forbid me to touch his wife whilst another male collegue ignored him and he was arrested at the scene after the husband complained to the attending police officer as my collegue had assaulted his wife.

It didn't go away either and he got fined £300 and kicked out of his job.

[the-gnole]

Simple1 really, You ask as soon as you go into the building where the shock box is not when it's needed.

Good idea Bill, so every shop or public place I go into I should ask where the AED is, after all we never know when we might need it

Also, you may find that St Johns insurance only covers you when you are on duty as a St johns First Aider. As a lay person who has done their course you are not covered. It is prudent to arrange your own insurance if you want to protect yourself.

I think you may need to re-check that one Bill.

Here is the necessary link http://www.sja.org.uk/sja/training-cour ... rance.aspx

Associate Membership Insurance

It is St John Ambulance’s charitable mission to teach as many people as possible essential first aid skills. We believe it also vitally important that people have the confidence to use these skills without hesitation wherever, and whenever, an accident occurs.

In acknowledgement of this, St John Ambulance will provide all students who successfully pass one of the courses below with Associate Membership Insurance cover for the duration of the validity of their training qualification. •First aid at work
•Emergency first aid at work
•Automated external defibrillation
•Road users first aid
•Sports first aid
•Anaphylaxis first aid
•Paediatric first aid
•Schools first aid
•Professional drivers first aid

This insurance covers students against claims arising from first aid they may have delivered outside of their workplace responsibilities and when not covered by employer's (or any other) insurance*.

We believe so strongly in the value of providing this re-assurance, and are so confident in the standards of our training delivery, that we will automatically provide all students who successfully pass one of our First aid at work, Emergency aid for appointed persons and AED courses with this Associate Membership Insurance at no extra charge.

*A first aider acting on behalf of an association or club must do so under the insurance of that club or association. Associate Membership Insurance does not cover the first aider in such instances.

As for the other then he was advised not to and breached that advice, so opened himself up to litigation.

Okay, in an isolated incident someone got fined and dismissed for breaching proper protocols when specifically told not to is the exception to the norm. His fail.

[Rosesandtea]

Jan thanks for a really great post - the stats are a bit depressing but still one never knows so if I'm even needed I hope I'll do the right thing. Skippy thanks for your ABC post too.

I did CPR way back, just after the Neanderthal period in the late 80s. I really woulld like to do another 1st aid/CPR course, but need some money to do the one I want to do.

[the-gnole]

Jan thanks for a really great post - the stats are a bit depressing but still one never knows so if I'm even needed I hope I'll do the right thing. Skippy thanks for your ABC post too.

I did CPR way back, just after the Neanderthal period in the late 80s. I really woulld like to do another 1st aid/CPR course, but need some money to do the one I want to do.

Check in with your local StJohns R&T, They may be able to help with a course, It isn't always a case that you need to pay for getting some training.

http://www.sja.org.uk/sja/volunteer/first-aid.aspx