Electricity grid alternative?

[Malthouse]

Steve, we agree but draw opposite conclusions

[Steveo82]

Steve, we agree but draw opposite conclusions

Are you sure

Do you mind telling me why/how you have come to a different conclusion. Is there somthing I'm missing

[Partimehero]

Hi guys,

I install an "off grid system" in steel shelters if clients require it. As mentioned, you can't beat a good diesal generater but sustainability is the only issue. What happens when the fuel runs out? It's incomprehensible to think of but it's a strong possibility. You can only physically store so much for any amount of time before it goes off anyway.

This is why I opt for 12v DC systems in my shelters. 12v sounds pretty measly but, with the right set up, it's enough to power your basics including a TV, kettle and small water heater, water pump etc IF USED SENSIBLY.

Deep cycle gel cell / AGM leisure batteries hold the charge really well and are extremely reliable nowadays but can cost up to £200 - £350 per battery. You get what you pay for though and are worth their weight in gold.

My systems incorporate inverter / chargers which means you are able to run some 240v devices off the system and are able to top the batteries up by plugging in a small generator. It doesn't take long to do this so you can save on your diesel. If the suns out and the solar panels are being toasted, you'll be pretty well stocked up with energy. During the darker overcast months you'll have to watch your amp hours!

Midsummer energy is a good resource for solar power. The systems in my shelters can cost between £6000 - £10000 depending upon individual requirements but you could have a basic home version for around £3000.

Hope this helps

HAPPY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE

[Malthouse]

Do you mind telling me why/how you have come to a different conclusion. Is there somthing I'm missing

Commercial engined generators with proper maintenance and a suitably specced spares package will out live us. If you do the research there is enough fuel within a 5 mile radious of most to fuel a 10kw gen set indefinitely in a shtf scenario.

Generators are next to useless in my humbleness, even a quiet installation is going to run out of fuel or break down just when you need it.

I would say we agree that generators in order to be useful need to be expensive, professional installation, a large store of spares, a maintenance regime, and fuel collected from up to 5 miles away (I would say more but lets say at least 5).

These points to you are a fair price to pay for 240v power, these points to me say that a generator should be as small as possible and just one part of a whole range of tools available.

For me something has to have two uses for every disadvantage in order to deserve a place on my must have list. A big diesel generator permanently fixed in a sound proof room with lots of baffles in the exhaust system, which in turn runs to a concealed outlet is never going to make the grade. Not least of which because I can't pick it up and load in the bad of my truck if I had to.

A generator is another mouth to feed, another reason to have to venture out and forage for fuel and other supplies.

Interesting debate, though I suspect I won't have changed your mind and I am not for a moment suggesting you are wrong.

[Yorkshire Andy]

Just to wade into the debate

I suppose it depends exactly what your prepping for..

take the high winds over the past few weeks....

short term power outaged due to overhead lines damaged by weather or a car accident taking out a power poll.. or some idiot builder getting enthusiastic with a JCB and finding the underground cable .....


We lost power in the summer last year due to a underground cable fault which blew a hole in the road ... power went off about 5pm and came back on about 11pm but it was one of those touching 30 degree C barmy summer days.... was watching the freezer thermometer and the temperature began to rise...

so fired up the gen set for 20 mins every couple of hours or so to keep the chest freezer happy and save the couple of hundred quid of food in it and the fridge freezer in the house... (got a load of meat from a wholesaler the weekend before)

In that situation they come in handy loads locally were putting in forms for lost freezer stuff but couldn't get any money as iirc it has to be off for something like 20 hours before you can submit a claim but then you only get a small amount back.



Same with flooding if you loose power you can keep some lights on and run a couple of submersible pumps (just dont use the generator inside a dwelling due to the CO risk)




I killed the last gen set by letting it overheat whilst trying to build a soundproof box but the new one to me costs about £10 in parts to service the engine... (spark plug is £2.70 1l of oil is £4.99 (it takes 500ml) air filter £8 ish although im looking at one of these which i can clean... http://www.viamoto.co.uk/proddetail.php ... er+HA-0201


as its brush less there are no parts to stock for the generator although a 18mf capacitor might be an item i go put on the shelf...

[Markwoody]

A friend of mine has a small holding at the end of a not reliable electric supply , so he set up a diesel genny in his barn , it starts up automatically if the power goes off , he runs it on central heating oil and has a couple of 1000 litre tanks as spares and his main tank is 5000 litres (i think) it also provides heat to his cottage when running ,as his barn is in a slight hollow it can not be heard from the road , he reckons that with the price of fuel it is not that much dearer than using power from the grid and he gets the free heat , as a retired fitter he services it himself .

[Malthouse]

I can't argue with either of those points, despite trying to find a way

The thing that put me off, I think, was that where I live is very remote (like more remote than most people think is possible) and we get power cuts moderately often so everyone is geared up for it. All the essential services have backup generators and life goes on pretty much as normal when there is one. At one point I had two generators, complete with intricate wiring to run what I felt were the important bits and bobs. But I just got fed up with turning them on, it was nice knowing they were there in case the cut lasted for a really long time but in the end I even gave up on that. I now have a couple of fully charged batteries, an inverter and some other small/cheap adapters and chargers etc.

[Steveo82]

Has anyone actioned an 'off grid' method of generating leccy? Workable solar panels, wind mills or the like? Is it feasible? What batteries are best? What happens if there get covered in snow? Are there electricians who do this type of thing? It seems tricky, has anyone had success out there with this type of scenario?
Cheers,

I believe (through experience) a wise way to achieve "off grid power" is to utilise Solar, wind and fossil fuels (plus hydro if possible) to maintain a battery bank. The way I look at it is if one fails one of the others should be able to step in. With regards Electricians, there are many off grid power specialists around the country who will gladly survey your property and do all the calculations for you. If you are connected to the national grid you can sell excess electricity back to the grid and receive a feed in tariff from the goverment.

A good place to start is http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/

[DundeePrepper]

Hi guys,

I install an "off grid system" in steel shelters if clients require it. As mentioned, you can't beat a good diesal generater but sustainability is the only issue. What happens when the fuel runs out? It's incomprehensible to think of but it's a strong possibility. You can only physically store so much for any amount of time before it goes off anyway.

This is why I opt for 12v DC systems in my shelters. 12v sounds pretty measly but, with the right set up, it's enough to power your basics including a TV, kettle and small water heater, water pump etc IF USED SENSIBLY.

Deep cycle gel cell / AGM leisure batteries hold the charge really well and are extremely reliable nowadays but can cost up to £200 - £350 per battery. You get what you pay for though and are worth their weight in gold.

My systems incorporate inverter / chargers which means you are able to run some 240v devices off the system and are able to top the batteries up by plugging in a small generator. It doesn't take long to do this so you can save on your diesel. If the suns out and the solar panels are being toasted, you'll be pretty well stocked up with energy. During the darker overcast months you'll have to watch your amp hours!

Midsummer energy is a good resource for solar power. The systems in my shelters can cost between £6000 - £10000 depending upon individual requirements but you could have a basic home version for around £3000.

Hope this helps

HAPPY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE

Although personal representation and promotion is generally frowned upon on this site -- Could you explain what you get for £3000 - I'm sure the majority of users here would be interested as it is an achievable amount for most I think with a bit/alot of scrimping and saving...

[Partimehero]

Hi guys,

Although personal representation and promotion is generally frowned upon on this site -- Could you explain what you get for £3000 - I'm sure the majority of users here would be interested as it is an achievable amount for most I think with a bit/alot of scrimping and saving...

We've all heard people say how unhappy they are in their work. Im quite the opposite really as I'm one of the fortunate ones that actually love their job. I've been in carpentry and construction for the past 20 years but as well as building extensions, laying laminate flooring and hanging doors, I install concrete and steel shelters in tandem with my "Day job". This has been an interest of mine for a long time and I've done poop loads of research on the subject.

I am also a PREPPER and have been prepping for the past 10 years. That is the reason why I am on this site and NOT for personal representation or for the promotion of my business. I pay marketing companies to do that. Im not one of these wannabe know it alls either. I'm a prepper with a trade just like so many others on this site but it just so happens I make shelters. Before I joined this site I liaised with the moderators / admin team regarding my extra curricular activities and was welcomed with open arms. I've said this before and I will say it again - IF ANYBODY IS INTERESTED IN BUILDING A SHELTER OF SOME KIND THEMSELVES AND WOULD LIKE SOME ADVICE, I'LL BE MORE THAN HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE TO FELLOW PREPPERS.

I have not broken any rules here and don't intend to do so but if any body feels that I have, please feel free to report me.

Back to the nitty gritty......

The systems my electricians install are tailored to each individuals requirements. Systems can vary in the size of battery banks installed but there is normally an average of 4 batteries in a battery bank, linked to solar panels that can also be topped up using a small generator. The panels can be mounted and dismounted as and when the need arises.

The batteries I use are Deep cycle gel cell or AGM glass mat batteries. These hold their charge extremely well and as time has gone on, they are proving to be more and more reliable. They don't "off gas" either which makes them ideal for a confined space such as a bunker. The only down side to using these is the price. Conventional lead acid batteries are much cheaper but give off gas during the charging process. Not good for bunkers but great in a shed / workshop etc.

An EXAMPLE of what I've installed before is:

4x 135W Professional Grade Monocrystalline Panels £419 each
1 x Steca 12/24v (30A) Solar Charge Controller with LCD readout @ £132 each
6 x Elecsol 250Ah AGM Battery, with 7-year warranty @ £380 each
1 x Victron Multiplus Combined Inverter-Charger @ £800 each

In addition to this you'd also need all the cabling, mounting poles, brackets, isolating switches etc.

I say to my clients that if they have to use the shelter for its intended purpose, the world as they know it may have changed in one way or another once they re emerge. Whether there has been a severe storm, a terrorist attack or a nuclear attack, gas, water and electricity may be in seriously short supply, if working at all. So the system they have installed may be the ONLY form of power available. It's up to the individual to weigh things up.

The system I've listed is an example of what I've fitted in the past and is at the top end of things. You could go higher if required. The company that has supplied me also supplied an African army to fulfil their solar energy requirements.

You could install a very basic system for £1000 using items from Screwfix and GoOutdoors. But this WILL be basic. You could get a semi decent system for approx £3000-£4000 from somewhere like http://midsummerenergy.co.uk

They offer a good selection of alternative energy products but not too pricey either. If you figure out what you'd like to run off the system, they'd be happy to do the calculations for you.