Hints That Western Civilisation is Starting to Crumble

[preppergb]

As for improvisation WOW when my son was touring Serbia he had to change over the 15KG gas bottle they used for cooking, fridge, water heater etc. He put the empty outside mid morning and a local serb asked if he could have it, our lad said yes and the Serb guy grabbed it and went. Mid afternoon a young girl came over to the camper and invited my son and his girlfriend to join them for a meal. They went to the house and were treated like honoured guests and given a fine meal. Then the guy who had taken the gas cyl and was the girls daddy proudly showed my son his new home made wood stove.......... it was still blue and had CALOR on it.

[featherstick]

Well - Serbia, Ukraine, Czech - they DID have a major collapse, very much within living memory. It's also true that prior to that collapse, having the skills and mindset to improvise, and access to some resources either from your place of work, or your dacha or veg patch, or from taking bribes for something, were really important to well-being in the Soviet times, and of course after the collapse. So these habits are engrained on those societies in a way that they just aren't in ours.

[preppergb]

I recent said to a good friend " do you remember how we laughed at and sneered at these former soviet countries of the Baltics and Eastern Europe, relying on wood stoves and boilers, how they get along by growing food we can buy for pennies in supermarkets like Australian strawberries etc, how they rely on community allotments and drive old basic rugged cars that look like they were made in a tank factory. Keeping pigs and chicken when we can buy Mountain house meals etc" We are not laughing any more.

[PreppingPingu]

One of the things my much travelled family picked up on in travels to places like Serbia, Czech Rep, Ukraine, Poland etc was just how many people who live outside the cities live an almost self sustaining lifestyle. Nearly everyone has large garden plots, wells, wood burning stoves, keep chickens, pigs, goats, sheep etc and still cooperate at village level to grow veg, cut firewood, barter etc. They bulk salt meats, smoke fish, carp ponds are everywhere. if a major collapse in many of those communities few would be affected by any major change. Now compare that to our utterly reliant state !!!

Yes I have often thought that myself when watching various documentaires, even "Alaska, the last frontier", which I know is made for TV but the ideal of self sufficiency gets you thinking. We have often talked on here about the older generations from war time and compared them to today's modern generations. (Not just the youth, I know many people in my generation; the 40 somethings, who are woefully crap at doing stuff for themselves.) Our society is ripe for a fall. But then that is how civilations come and go, you reach a saturation point with social, environmental, religious, and political issues and something gives. It's the natural order of things which you look back in history. No society or civilsation lasts for ever.

[Arwen Thebard]

Well - Serbia, Ukraine, Czech - they DID have a major collapse, very much within living memory. It's also true that prior to that collapse, having the skills and mindset to improvise, and access to some resources either from your place of work, or your dacha or veg patch, or from taking bribes for something, were really important to well-being in the Soviet times, and of course after the collapse. So these habits are engrained on those societies in a way that they just aren't in ours.

We moved to a small village in Croatia (Ex Yugoslavia) in 2002 and lived there for 10 years and can certainly vouch for many of the comments on here. Our neighbors often didn't have any cash whatsoever and yet lived a good lifestyle, being entirely self sufficient in all food items although not in fuel / energy. Their outlook on life was generally very welcoming and accepting to outsiders. They opened their doors to many Serbs and Bosnia's during the Balkans conflict.

Corruption was widespread and an integral part of the culture and system, it was the only way low paid civil servants could survive during the soviet era and it's viewed as part of everyday life, you get used to it after a while.

We remember it as one of the best places we have ever lived.......there have been a few over the years.

[Post]

I did a bit of research into the Roman Empire and the collapse of it and I saw some stark worrying comparisons to the West, it worries me.

The following reasons were why the Roman Empire collapsed, let me know if you see any comparisons.

1 - Weak Leadership.

2 - Weakened Economy caused by War and the rich not paying their taxes.

3 - Unprotected borders - Not enough money to protect borders from Barbarians.

4 - Barbarian invasion - whether from the above issue or being assimilated into the Empire but their loyalties lying with their tribe and not the Empire.

5 - Corruption and greed of people in charge.

6 - Rise of Christianity - different religious ideology.

[Arwen Thebard]

A book by the Russian author/blogger, Dimitry Orlov, "The Five Stages Of Collapse"

He proposes the five stages of collapse are;

Stage 1: Financial collapse. Faith in “business as usual” is lost.
Stage 2: Commercial collapse. Faith that “the market shall provide” is lost.
Stage 3: Political collapse. Faith that “the government will take care of you” is lost.
Stage 4: Social collapse. Faith that “your people will take care of you” is lost.
Stage 5: Cultural collapse. Faith in “the goodness of humanity” is lost.

I'm not sure if they all have to happen in that order, if indeed they have to be any order?

I think you can find a concise version to read online via his and other blogs, but I dont expect that many libraries will stock it.

http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/p/the-fiv ... lapse.html

[ukpreppergrrl]

I did a bit of research into the Roman Empire and the collapse of it and I saw some stark worrying comparisons to the West, it worries me.

Always remember the fall of the Roman Empire didn't happen overnight, it took years - about 100 in fact, and most of it didn't "fall" it merely morphed into something else, like the Byzantine Empire. The Byzantine Empire itself then fell in 1453 (the fall of Constantinople is the date usually given - this was an unusually abrupt end to an Empire) and that then gave rise to the Renaissance, which is the start of our current Western Culture. Basically my theory is yes, the West i.e. Western Culture is quite probably failing, all empires/cultures do fall eventually, but that does not mean all is doom and gloom and suddenly we're going to be cast into a new Dark Ages where we're scrabbling in the dirt and grunting in monosyllables. Western Culture has changed quite considerably over the last 565 years - notably the dominance of Europe (and particularly the British Empire) being overshadowed by the dominance of The Former Colonies We're still here. Things change, they always have, they will continue to do so.

The Soviet Union collapsed. Whilst Stages 1-3 certainly happened in the former USSR, personally (and this is just my opinion) I'm not convinced that Stages 4 and 5 did. Not saying times weren't difficult for 10 or even 20 years, but my impression is that people didn't lose faith in family or in humanity in general. Just in their government. And arguably the average former USSR resident isn't any worse off now than they were 50 years ago. It's just different. Some are considerably better off...

War can definitely trigger Stages 4 and 5, but not every empire ends with a massive war which resets humanity. Most empires actually end with a whimper not with a bang. The mighty Mayan Empire being a case in point. It just disappeared over the course of a couple of hundred years as its people dispersed.

Can't believe I of all people am saying this, but change isn't necessarily a portent of doom. War is something to fear. But war is not a necessity for an empire to fall. And once an empire falls, there is something else afterwards.

[Deeps]

I did a bit of research into the Roman Empire and the collapse of it and I saw some stark worrying comparisons to the West, it worries me.

Always remember the fall of the Roman Empire didn't happen overnight, it took years - about 100 in fact, and most of it didn't "fall" it merely morphed into something else, like the Byzantine Empire. The Byzantine Empire itself then fell in 1453 (the fall of Constantinople is the date usually given - this was an unusually abrupt end to an Empire) and that then gave rise to the Renaissance, which is the start of our current Western Culture. Basically my theory is yes, the West i.e. Western Culture is quite probably failing, all empires/cultures do fall eventually, but that does not mean all is doom and gloom and suddenly we're going to be cast into a new Dark Ages where we're scrabbling in the dirt and grunting in monosyllables. Western Culture has changed quite considerably over the last 565 years - notably the dominance of Europe (and particularly the British Empire) being overshadowed by the dominance of The Former Colonies We're still here. Things change, they always have, they will continue to do so.

The Soviet Union collapsed. Whilst Stages 1-3 certainly happened in the former USSR, personally (and this is just my opinion) I'm not convinced that Stages 4 and 5 did. Not saying times weren't difficult for 10 or even 20 years, but my impression is that people didn't lose faith in family or in humanity in general. Just in their government. And arguably the average former USSR resident isn't any worse off now than they were 50 years ago. It's just different. Some are considerably better off...

War can definitely trigger Stages 4 and 5, but not every empire ends with a massive war which resets humanity. Most empires actually end with a whimper not with a bang. The mighty Mayan Empire being a case in point. It just disappeared over the course of a couple of hundred years as its people dispersed.

Can't believe I of all people am saying this, but change isn't necessarily a portent of doom. War is something to fear. But war is not a necessity for an empire to fall. And once an empire falls, there is something else afterwards.

Very eloquently put, basically, life goes on. As will we after Brexit or whatever other calamity befalls us, maybe not all the individuals but hey ho, life will go on and we'll become part of some other grouping or culture. Its not like ours hasn't changed over the years anyway.

All we can do is enjoy the ride, what will happen will happen, if we're lucky it will be pretty uneventful, if you're unlucky then you might be dealt a shit hand and have to deal with all sorts of upheaval. You just have to make the best of it. I'm not even sure that 'our' culture (whatever the culture) is worth preserving, if you look at history, I'm sure every age has thought they were the bees knees but we look back and tut at their morals. Its just ego that makes us think that 'we' have got it right and 'our lot' are worth preserving.

[Post]

Great response.