Hints That Western Civilisation is Starting to Crumble

[Bad Wombat]

New scientist article entitled "There are disturbing hints that Western civilisation is starting to crumble" is available here:https://pastebin.com/5W6Cj5BF.

[Arzosah]

That's an interesting article, though my brain resisted reading it quite a lot

Crisis in the 2020s predicted by models that portray the last 300 years fairly accurately and an interesting hypothesis about why turbulence brings about collapse at some times and not others. And the following sentence describes the conclusion of a mathematician at the Univ of Maryland: "either extreme inequality or resource depletion could push a society to collapse, but collapse is irreversible only when the two coincide".

Yikes. I think we're nearly there ...

[General DeGaulle]

A book that goes into much detail about this is Jared Diamond's 'Collapse - how societies choose to fail or survive'

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Collapse-Socie ... ed+diamond

His outlook if anything is even bleaker than the New Scientist article; he includes China, India and Russia among 'western' industrialised nations. He describes a number of societies throughout the ages and how they appeared to almost consciously head towards collapse even when the problems should have been easy to solve.

For example, the Easter Islanders totally deforested their island in order to build their famous statues. When the last tree was cut down, and the last statue built, their culture immediately imploded due to mass depopulation as they could no longer build fishing boats. The one ship a year which the Greenland Vikings relied upon for their survival contained things like church bells and fine clothes for the elite, even as the 'little ice age' intensified and their population went into a terminal decline.

He doesn't include Ancient Rome in his study, pointing out that the Western Roman Empire transformed into the Catholic Church, and that the Eastern bit carried on for another 1000 years. On this I disagree with professor Diamond and agree with the New Scientist article; things definitely went belly - up very quickly in the 5th century due to a series of problems we could identify with today.

As a species we are definitely very bad at playing the long game.

[preppergb]

One thing that makes me think that everything is not well in Camelot is the trend reports in multiple media sources from tabloids, to journals to magazines on how the rich, famous, powerful and influential including VERY many silicon valley billionaires and millionaires are building or buying retreats, redoubts,buying islands, off grid ranches, etc in remote areas, and other also moving in to OFF GRID (that's the important bit) gated communities and of course the Iceberg house trend in places like London. Whilst many tacky tabloid journos and commentators like to ridicule these people by assuming WRONGLY these people are building bunkers to survive nuclear war in fact when one reads interviews from the few willing to talk about things ALL say they are prepping NOT for Armageddon but for economic and societal collapse. One company is building multi occupancy retreats in multiple countries and their sales books are FULL !!

I wont go into the political aspects which is against forums rules but I think I can point out that those with the influence and cash from every wealthy nation and of ALL political persuasions ( left and right, religious and aethistic etc) are seeing something written on the winds and taking steps to protect themselves. These numbers are in the THOUSANDS of people. surely all these rich, influential, powerful and well connected are not all " Nutters" ?

if the ruling elite are willing to spend very often MILLIONS of pounds on their own retreats etc and they are among the most well informed and connected then I believe there is something wrong.

[Deeps]

One thing that makes me think that everything is not well in Camelot is the trend reports in multiple media sources from tabloids, to journals to magazines on how the rich, famous, powerful and influential including VERY many silicon valley billionaires and millionaires are building or buying retreats, redoubts,buying islands, off grid ranches, etc in remote areas, and other also moving in to OFF GRID (that's the important bit) gated communities and of course the Iceberg house trend in places like London. Whilst many tacky tabloid journos and commentators like to ridicule these people by assuming WRONGLY these people are building bunkers to survive nuclear war in fact when one reads interviews from the few willing to talk about things ALL say they are prepping NOT for Armageddon but for economic and societal collapse. One company is building multi occupancy retreats in multiple countries and their sales books are FULL !!

I wont go into the political aspects which is against forums rules but I think I can point out that those with the influence and cash from every wealthy nation and of ALL political persuasions ( left and right, religious and aethistic etc) are seeing something written on the winds and taking steps to protect themselves. These numbers are in the THOUSANDS of people. surely all these rich, influential, powerful and well connected are not all " Nutters" ?

if the ruling elite are willing to spend very often MILLIONS of pounds on their own retreats etc and they are among the most well informed and connected then I believe there is something wrong.

Things go in fashions too, I'm not arguing against you as such but it could also be "if that guy is getting a 'bunker' then so will I", I reckon even the rich like to keep up with the Jones's.

[Plymtom]

Things go in fashions too, I'm not arguing against you as such but it could also be "if that guy is getting a 'bunker' then so will I", I reckon even the rich like to keep up with the Jones's.

Yeah Ask yourself if you were that rich, would you not indulge yourself with a safe place? Indeed they must feel it more than most, the desire to get away.

There's a bit in in a film saying that mankind needs to go close to the edge before they see the danger, I feel these days are like that, wealthy and greedy folk are sitting metaphorically on the rest of us, they needed us to get to where they are, if society collapses it'll be because the likes of them let it So are they building a safe haven, or are they building themselves a luxurious prison that they'll never be able to leave if TS does HTF? Or are they building an elaborate tomb? Bunkers have to be built and someone will know or find out about it, on the one hand they offer the ultimate protection for some scenarios, and yet for others they are not safe places at all, they are a self inflicted trap, If I were rich and collapse was my fear, I would look to building a life somewhere quiet and prep for the entire community enhancing their lives in the here and now, thus improving our chances before, during, and after any potential collapse.
So are we really about to all go to sh1te, or will we collectively look over that cliff edge and think screw that!? I see signs of both, you can look to one side and see hope and the best of us, to the other there is greed selfishness and the worst of us, in the end some of us may well have to do a good deal more than simply hope for the best and prep for the worst.

[preppergb]

One thing that makes me think that everything is not well in Camelot is the trend reports in multiple media sources from tabloids, to journals to magazines on how the rich, famous, powerful and influential including VERY many silicon valley billionaires and millionaires are building or buying retreats, redoubts,buying islands, off grid ranches, etc in remote areas, and other also moving in to OFF GRID (that's the important bit) gated communities and of course the Iceberg house trend in places like London. Whilst many tacky tabloid journos and commentators like to ridicule these people by assuming WRONGLY these people are building bunkers to survive nuclear war in fact when one reads interviews from the few willing to talk about things ALL say they are prepping NOT for Armageddon but for economic and societal collapse. One company is building multi occupancy retreats in multiple countries and their sales books are FULL !!

I wont go into the political aspects which is against forums rules but I think I can point out that those with the influence and cash from every wealthy nation and of ALL political persuasions ( left and right, religious and aethistic etc) are seeing something written on the winds and taking steps to protect themselves. These numbers are in the THOUSANDS of people. surely all these rich, influential, powerful and well connected are not all " Nutters" ?

if the ruling elite are willing to spend very often MILLIONS of pounds on their own retreats etc and they are among the most well informed and connected then I believe there is something wrong.

Things go in fashions too, I'm not arguing against you as such but it could also be "if that guy is getting a 'bunker' then so will I", I reckon even the rich like to keep up with the Jones's.

Yes a VERY VERY good point indeed, Keeping up with the Joneses, I had not thought about that. I guess its like when people suddenly see sense in something and follow suit like the Seat Belt carryone before they were compulsory to where. Yes a darn good point.

[preppergb]

Things go in fashions too, I'm not arguing against you as such but it could also be "if that guy is getting a 'bunker' then so will I", I reckon even the rich like to keep up with the Jones's.

Yeah Ask yourself if you were that rich, would you not indulge yourself with a safe place? Indeed they must feel it more than most, the desire to get away.

There's a bit in in a film saying that mankind needs to go close to the edge before they see the danger, I feel these days are like that, wealthy and greedy folk are sitting metaphorically on the rest of us, they needed us to get to where they are, if society collapses it'll be because the likes of them let it So are they building a safe haven, or are they building themselves a luxurious prison that they'll never be able to leave if TS does HTF? Or are they building an elaborate tomb? Bunkers have to be built and someone will know or find out about it, on the one hand they offer the ultimate protection for some scenarios, and yet for others they are not safe places at all, they are a self inflicted trap, If I were rich and collapse was my fear, I would look to building a life somewhere quiet and prep for the entire community enhancing their lives in the here and now, thus improving our chances before, during, and after any potential collapse.
So are we really about to all go to sh1te, or will we collectively look over that cliff edge and think screw that!? I see signs of both, you can look to one side and see hope and the best of us, to the other there is greed selfishness and the worst of us, in the end some of us may well have to do a good deal more than simply hope for the best and prep for the worst.

I suppose it could be seen as a reflection of society as a whole. people from all walks of life see the writing on the wall and want to take precautions. so the ultra rich buy Islands in the Bahamas or Super Bunker Compounds in remote locations. The simply obscenely rich buy homesteads and smallholdings in semi remote areas but equip them for full self sufficiency. The menial wealthy buy rural piles in other places to flee to for weekends and civil unrest. Other wealthy types moved into gated communities etc and it cascades down to the rank and file of society like us, a few can afford to move out of town, most cannot but upgrade their home security and start prepping as funds allow. Kindred spirits separated by social class and wealth !!

[featherstick]

This was my review of Orlov's "Five Stages of Collapse", from last year. Relevant to this discussion.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=13632&p=154959&hilit=orlov#p154959

[preppergb]

This was my review of Orlov's "Five Stages of Collapse", from last year. Relevant to this discussion.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=13632&p=154959&hilit=orlov#p154959

A very well written appraisal I'm well impressed enough to down load it.

May I comment on your opening comments from that thread "Review: Five Stages of Collapse, Dmitry Orlov.
by featherstick » Mon Jul 25, 2016 7:57 pm
""Dmitry Orlov is a Russian-American engineer, blogger, sailor and writer who has built up a bit of a following among the “kollapsnik” community for his perceptive insights into the end of empire. He is probably most well-known for a work comparing the Soviet Union and America, which concluded that the population of the SU was better prepared for collapse due to the high prevalence of informal rules, networks of obligation and favour, and being well-used to making-do in times of shortage.""

One of the things my much travelled family picked up on in travels to places like Serbia, Czech Rep, Ukraine, Poland etc was just how many people who live outside the cities live an almost self sustaining lifestyle. Nearly everyone has large garden plots, wells, wood burning stoves, keep chickens, pigs, goats, sheep etc and still cooperate at village level to grow veg, cut firewood, barter etc. They bulk salt meats, smoke fish, carp ponds are everywhere. if a major collapse in many of those communities few would be affected by any major change. Now compare that to our utterly reliant state !!!